M19 woofer swap & tweaks....

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:33 PM

Ok, so I mentioned in an earlier post my newly aquired 416-8c's that I wanted to compare to the stock -8B's in my 1978 vintage 19's. I've always wanted to test this. This is no scientific test by any stretch of the imagination in fact it could very well be invalid do to my limited amp/source selection (no tubes, no vynil) and the fact that the HF drivers are still the Alnico 802-8G's. Just playing around having fun is more like it I suppose.
Some of my pics tht follow are nothing new to 19 owners, but might be useful to those new owners whom have not yet peeked inside the cabinets.
First pic shows the removed 416-8B and you can see the original internal wiring I've replaced because of the solder joints were extremely weak and near breaking. Also you can see my non-stock bases and that I re-routed the connection leads to the back of the cabinet.

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:38 PM

I've also put a bead of clear silicone caulk to effectively seal the upper & lower cabinet sections.....While I had the woofer out I gave the veneer a good wipe with oil polish.

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:46 PM

Here is the 416-8C compared to the 416-8B. Member dgwojo gave me these covers sometime back but I still have not come up with a way of attaching them with out altering the cork gasket....something I do not want to do. Someday I'd like to mount them for obvious reasons.

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:50 PM

The 416-8B's have a yellow grease pencil mark over the stamped number on both woofers. Although this one looks like an "S".....the other is simply a straight line. Quailty control approval maybe?

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:56 PM

In this pic....The LEFT speaker still has the 8B....while the RIGHT speaker has the 8C. I switched the Sansui to "mono" and did went back & forth between both using a variaty of music. Metallica (the "black album") Some Paul McCartney.....and some classical stuff on the Telarc label.

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 04:59 PM

The EQ you see on top of the reciever BTW is not even switched into the system during this. It is just a toy I play with sometimes.

In this picture both speakers now have the 416-8C's installed.

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 05:11 PM

OK, so MY opinion? Not a difference that I can tell. I'm listening at this moment.....same exact sound I get and expect from the 416-8B's. They sound exactly the same to my ears. Now I'm sure proper measuring equipment would indicate different performance between the two drivers.....but my ears just can't tell. I kinda happy about that because I really don't feel like swapping the -8B's back in right now!

At least it DOES prove that my -8B's don't need a re-charge. Other wise the -8c's would have been an improvement.

Again....it could be argued that this is not really a proper test for a lot of reasons....but it IS my listening set-up for the time being. I do wish I had a vintage tube amp and a set of later generation HF drivers to compare further.

Russ

**Carl Bill** · October 24th, 2009, 11:24 PM

Russ,

I am surprised that you didn't hear any difference. I tried this swap many years ago... maybe 1985? I thought the "B" was much better at power handling and low end bass. I was using a Yamaha P2200 amp and a Yamaha C70 pre-amp at the time. I even went as far as drilling holes for a JBL D-140 just to see if it sounded any better than the Altec 416-8B.... It did not!!!

So one of my 1978 Model 19's has an extra set of woofer holes... but don't tell anyone!

I had a friend at the time that thought JBL was far superior to Altec, hence the D-140 attempt. The Altec 416-8B seemed to work much better in the 19 cabinet than the JBL and the 416-8C in my opinion.

But maybe it was the extreem wattage I was pushing? Howmany wats can your amp push? I was going to maximum DB. The Yamaha was conservatively pushing 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms.

The "B" just seemed to go farther than the "C" in my memory.

I still have the Model 19's and several 416-8C's, so I may need to try this again when I have some spare time!

Glad to see you are still having fun with your Altecs!!!

Carl Bill

**Carl Bill** · October 24th, 2009, 11:34 PM

Thinking about this again.......

Maybe... the "sound" was about the same... but the high end power handling did not seem the same to me... I think the "B" models could go a bit farther at the extreem than the "C". Not so much a real "sound" issue as power handling in my recollection.

The JBL D-140 didn't even sound good. It was weak, hollow and didn't have any punch compared to the 416's... My friend was not happy about that at all. In his mind, the JBL D-140 should have made the Model 19 come into a new reality! But it fell way short of that. Too bad for JBL...

**Russnohio** · October 24th, 2009, 11:52 PM

Hi Bill,

The Sansui G-9000 I'm using is rated at 160 wpc. I'll confess I did not crank it to bone-rattling levels today. I did not crank for max db (I'm afraid to).....but I did get quite loud with the volume. It could be that I need to live with the set-up a while longer, but today.....honestly....I just cannot tell a difference.

It could be that the recordings you & I used in this comparison are drastically different as well......I don't nesessarally (could NEVER spell that word!)....mean Rock vs classical, etc., but in the quality of the recordings themselves. I did play some very good sounding Telarc disc.....exellent sounding...I should say, and I cannot explain it. The -8B & -8C sound the same to me.

I suppose there could be lots of varibles that would acount for the difference you & I hear between these drivers.

Russ

As I stated earlier though, I'm actually glad they sound similiar!